Getting to the Heart of Birth - Nikki Shaheed

11/05/2020

Getting to the Heart of Birth
Nikki Shaheed

 

This episode was sponsored by:

Please donate HERE

We are a 501 3c Non-Profit. Our aim is to prevent and heal birth trauma through education. Women need to understand their options and rights in childbirth so that they can have a safe and healthy birth.

 

Today, we talk with Nikki Shaheed (www.nikkishaheed.com), one of the Co-Owners of Birthing From Within International. She is also a childbirth mentor and doula, and is the author of Heart Centered Pregnancy Journal (https://birthingfromwithinsanantonio.com/pregnancy-journal/).

We begin with Nikki sharing how she got involved in the Birthing From Within courses. We talk about the importance of finding your inner wisdom and becoming aware of how your imprinted beliefs impact your decisions in preparation for birth and parenting. We talk about how to go from feeling primarily defensive through your birth experience to making your birth process a transformative experience.

We talk about the importance of setting up your birth experience and preparing yourself beforehand so that you can feel protected internally and protected by people you trust. Nikki then tells us how self-compassion is everything in processing your entire birth experience. We discuss more in-depth the importance of self-awareness and doing the work prenatally to accept your emotions and responses to help you through your birth experience.

Nikki then shares what makes Birthing From Within different from other birth modalities, including its focus on “the heroic journey” when training doulas and birth workers. We talk about crossing thresholds and making shifts without shame, and embracing the transformation and education that comes with your birth experience. We talk about defining your most sincere intention with your birth and building your birth team around that intention.

We finish by discussing how the Birthing From Within program helps protect birth workers with burnout and trauma. We invite both birthing mothers and birth professionals to visit https://birthingfromwithin.com.

• 1:13 Nikki’s Story
• 4:22 Practicing Self-Awareness and Rewriting Your Story
• 26:48 The Birthing From Within Program
• 42:03 Preventing Burnout for Birth Professionals

 

https://birthingfromwithin.com/
Check Out Her Book Here

Connect with our guest!

https://birthcircle.com/birth-directory/view/nikki-shaheed
https://www.instagram.com/birthingfromwithin/
https://www.facebook.com/BirthingFromWithin

Podcasts are sponsored in part by Empowering Fearless Birth
donate@empoweringfearlessbirth.com

 

 

The way we live our lives is led by the stories that we tell ourselves. Often, when preparing to take a step toward something new, negative stories from our past experiences can sneak in and influence the new stories. This especially tends to happen in pregnancy and birth when we are holding onto stories about how the experience is going to be frightening and that asking for help will make us weak. With the right prenatal coaching, those stories can be rewritten so that birth can happen in a way that overcomes all fear and doubt.

Sarah and Nikki discuss the way we form the stories that we tell and how that affects the way we approach birth. They also talk about how changing the story can help to make the birthing experience a meaningful transformation, regardless of whether it goes as planned. They talk about training birth workers to help mothers with this story transformation, and helping those workers to protect themselves from burnout.

Nikki is one of the Co-Owners of Birthing From Within International and leads trainings for birth professionals from all around the world. She has been working as a childbirth mentor and doula in San Antonio, TX since 2012. Nikki has guided hundreds of families and birth professionals across the threshold of birth, and has captured her ability to help people find their inner wisdom and self-compassion in her book Heart Centered Pregnancy Journal.

 

This episode was sponsored by:

Please donate HERE

We are a 501 3c Non-Profit. Our aim is to prevent and heal birth trauma through education. Women need to understand their options and rights in childbirth so that they can have a safe and healthy birth.

 

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT: (Auto-Generated.  Please reach out to us if there is a problem with the text)

Intro (00:00):

The birth circle podcast features experts in all the nuanced areas of pregnancy birth and postpartum with the aim of helping women make the choices that will keep them safe, healthy, and empowered. We respect all birth choices and believe in supporting informed consent and evidence based practices. Nothing said on this podcast should be taken as medical advice. You should always seek the advice of a competent professional for your care. Welcome to the birth circle podcast.

Sarah (00:31):

This is Sarah with birth circle, and today I have Erica [inaudible] with me and she is one of the co owners of birthing from within, and I am so excited. Erica, thank you so much for joining me today.

Erica (00:43):

Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for the invitation really exciting.

Sarah (00:47):

I've got lots of questions and I'm really excited to explore what birthing from within is and what it's not it's, it's a birth course. It's a childbirth education course, right. It's just for the listeners. And um, so first of all, how did you get interested in birth work? I mean, it's a slippery slope for all of us,

Erica (01:05):

Right? I know. Well, um, when I was pregnant with my first child who is now 21, so this is, this is going way back. Um, I just got really interested in birth and empowerment and, you know, I was kind of looking for a deeper experience around the pregnancy and the birth itself. And, um, birthing from within the book written by Pam England had just come out. It was actually like kind of hot off the presses at that time. And a friend gave it to me at my mother blessing. And, um, it was the first book that I read where I was like, Oh, somebody else has this experience of this being, you know, profound and transformative and spiritual in a way. And, um, also what I loved about it when I was pregnant is that the book isn't about, here's how to have this type of birth.

Erica (02:01):

It's like, here's how to experience whatever birth you end up having. Um, and that really felt like a relief to me because so much was leading me down the path of like of wanting a natural birth and which is great, but it felt a little like there was sort of an attachment issue that was like I was struggling with as a pregnant person. So anyways, I fell in love with the book and when I was pregnant and then, um, you know, had an amazing birth, it was super challenging and brought me to my knees, like most births do. And, um, I actually came out of that experience, feeling very charged about like, Oh, I figured it out. I know how to have the, like the perfect birth, even though it was hard and long and all that. And I kind of got a little dogmatic about, um, I want to tell other people how to have this perfect birth.

Erica (02:53):

Um, and then I started, um, looking at trainings to become a doula. And so I did a, a regular doula training, not related to birthing from within, and then a month later I did a birthing from within training with Pam England. And it really dumped me upside down as far as my attachment to what I thought in that moment was the perfect birth, because really what birthing from within us is about, is helping people to uncover what they need to know what is true for them, what they already know. And also recognizing that we actually don't have control over how the birth goes. I mean, we can lay a great foundation, which is super important, but we also need to be able to be flexible and go with the flow and make a good decision in the moment in which the decision needs to be made and all these things around flexibility and fluidity and not actually being attached to a specific outcome.

Erica (03:54):

So anyways, that training just like cracked me open. And because birthing from within is so deep and rich, I just, um, like, like I said, I just cracked open. My heart was like wide open and I was just like, Oh, this is a whole new path for me. And so that was, um, more 20 years ago. And then, um, birthing from within has morphed over all those years and off, I've taken a ton of trainings early on with Pam and, um, just got deeper and deeper into the philosophy. And, um, it just continued to lead me on this way. And so then I've been working with parents locally as a childbirth educator and for a while as a doula, uh, here in Boulder, Colorado. But, um, but yes, now about three years ago, um, two colleagues and I, Carrie Kenner and Nikki Shahid were asked by Pam England to step in and take over the leadership of breathing from within. And so we're now doing the trainings for other birth professionals. And so anyways, that was a long answer to your,

Sarah (04:58):

No, that was very complete. I mean, you, you never knew that 20 years ago when you took a birthing class, you would eventually be running this international organization and helping millions of women.

Erica (05:11):

Did I not know that that's for sure.

Sarah (05:14):

Would you have run the other way?

Erica (05:16):

Uh, maybe no, no, it's been, it's been an incredible journey and, um, you know, one of the things that I appreciate so much about birthing from within and always have is that there's so much around self awareness and growth as a human and as a person and as a, you know, in relationship and all this. And so it's, it's constantly been this like evolution for me, um, on a really deep level. So I appreciate that in addition to the amazing parents I've worked with all these years and all these inspired birth professionals who come to birthing from within looking for something new and different. Yeah.

Sarah (05:53):

Yeah. So speaking of new and different. So I, I, um, I believe that there's a birth class for everyone that there's a provider for everyone and that birth trauma a lot of times is most of the time in my feeling is a provider client mismatch or an information client mismatch. And so I'm just adamant that people take the birth class that that would best fit their personality, their, their needs, their expectations. And while you said, I loved how you talked about attachment, attachment, attachment to what you feel like the breath should be and how you can't control birth, but at the same time, like a lot of us see that control as a way to abate fear. And there's just so much going on. So what, what does birthing from within, what does it teach? How, what is the philosophy, how does it go about, um, helping, um, relieve that attachment, helping embrace the possibilities and the twists and turns of birth? Um, how's it different from other modalities classes?

Erica (07:03):

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think I would add to the piece around that you said around trauma. Um, I would add what I also believe happens for people with who end up feeling traumatized by their birth experience is not just a mismatch maybe, but, um, a that they went into it being attached and having been fed the messaging from wherever. Our culture is very good at this messaging, which is, if you learn enough, if you get enough information, if you make all the right decisions, then you will get what you want and it will go the way you want it to go. Yeah.

Sarah (07:41):

That the way it is, I mean,

Erica (07:44):

I mean, wouldn't that be amazing? I always joke about like, if we could like, you know, like treat birth, like at the deli where you say like extra Mayo, hold the sprouts, no onions, and then get the sandwich that you want, you know,

Sarah (07:57):

Breaks my heart. When I see women just crushed by their birth experience, because they felt like they got cheated cause they didn't get what they wanted. And it's

Erica (08:04):

Right. So, so what is tempting for a lot of birth professionals and, and, and in a lot of birth classes, I think is to just kind of dump information because what parents, they don't know what they don't know, and they don't know what they really need to know, which is often actually more about themselves, which I'll get to in a minute. But I think what most parents enter into a birth class or into a relationship with a doula in kind of a state of like, please, you know, give me the information, fill me up and show me how to do this. Tell me how to do it. Right. I want to avoid this and I want to avoid that and I want to get this and I want to get that, you know? And so then it's very tempting as a birth professional to fill that need to just step right in and be like, Oh, here's the information.

Erica (08:53):

Here's what you need to know. Here's this here's that. And then we send these parents off into birth, attached to it, being the way they think it's going to go. And they think they're, well-informed like, of course it should just unfold the way I want, because I'm so informed. And yet what happens in birth as those of us who have been around it for a long time, we know it's actually not the information that you have that helps you get through it. It's your like resilience inside. It's your connection to your partner, your doula, your willingness to surrender and to let, actually let go, rather than hold on tight to what you were hoping would happen. Wow. Yes.

Sarah (09:35):

Oh my goodness. I've never heard that. So succinctly put that's exactly what it is because the information is good. It's good to know what all of the possibilities are and have, you know, so you could have informed consent and even know what your options are. So you can make decisions on the fly, but it's not the information that saves you.

Erica (09:54):

Right. Wow. Information is a great, when you're kind of setting the foundation, like you said, choosing care providers or birth place, you know, it's great, but we have to take it further than that. And it takes some courage as a birth professional to be willing to open up the truth to parents and say like, let's take it beyond the information. Like, what are you going to do when things get hard? What if something goes in a direction, you were hoping it wouldn't go.

Sarah (10:25):

It's not just information that becomes like ingrained in you. And so then it becomes natural, right? Or how would you say that?

Erica (10:32):

I'm going to say, we want to wake up and people is some resilience and some flexibility and some, um, ability to recognize that they might have to do something really hard that they're hoping they don't have to do. And what are they going to do in that moment? How will they step in? How will they recognize, like this is part of our, our baby's birth story and yeah. It's not what we wanted and it's happening. So instead of feeling like, I wish it wasn't, I want it to stop. I want to be an avoidance. It's kind of a leaning in and bringing some compassion for ourselves like this isn't because I did something right or wrong. This is just happening. And what's my most compassionate way and my most resilient way to keep moving, even in this really hard moment. Wow. So, um,

Sarah (11:25):

How, how specifically do you do that? How do you teach, teach parents? These skills just like beat them up until they surrender,

Erica (11:34):

Right? Yeah. No, I know. And it's really hard because, um, sometimes we can be met with resistance from parents who were like, I don't want to have that conversation. I don't want to talk about the things that could happen. That I'm really hoping won't. And so obviously there's a lot that has to do with really meeting people on a heart level and building rapport and trust with people. You're not just going to go in there and say like, you know, you're not going to get the birth you want, like, it's not about that because that's not necessarily true either. Um, it's more about like, Hey, so here's some information start there. Right. And then what else do you need to know? Like how, what will you need to know? If things get hard, what will you tap into? So we want to offer them some pain, coping practices, for example, that make them feel really resourced.

Erica (12:18):

So if it turns out to be more intense, more painful than they thought, or the one thing they thought they were going to do to cope with the pain, if that doesn't work for some reason, like they have more options. So we would teach a bunch of pain coping practices. And then we also have, you know, a handful of, or more actually handfuls of processes and art, art assignments and things like that, that help people to get out of their thinking brain and start accessing kind of that more intuitive, that more ancient brain, the right side of the brain. That's like the creative piece that we actually in our culture, unless you're an artist. Um, you know, a lot, even, even artists get really thinking nowadays a lot of time and they have to navigate the system. But if we think we can navigate birth by, by just being rational and linear and information based, we're going to be really shocked and surprised by what happens because of our, the hormones that get involved right. And everything washy. And we can't even remember it's, it's an altered state. So how can you alter the normal living in your alternative? Exactly. So we want to really wake up people's, um, skills around, um, that, that kind of other way of being, which is more fluid, more intuitive, more creative, more flexible, more resilient, um, and less, um, attached to a specific outcome and more open to possibilities.

Sarah (13:51):

So, uh, you mentioned this before, it was actually going to be my next question that we artists stay in the right side of their brain. Most of the time I've heard that birthing from within is kind of for artsy people. Like there's a, there's a spectrum of birth education and you can go like hardcore hospital birth class, or you can go all the way to, you know, dancing in the woods where to know where it is birthing from within. Is it just for artsy or like what type of people?

Erica (14:20):

That's a great question. Well, I think sometimes it's artsy people, either parents or professionals. So we kind of have the two components and I'm sort of speaking to one is the prep preparation for parents. The other is training for birth professionals. And I think sometimes people who are already comfortable with creativity and already like kind of awaken to this, um, artsy or side, um, might be initially drawn to birthing from within, but it's actually kind of a, a myth in a way that it's for artsy types or that it's only for crunchy people who, um, you know, who are drawn to it because the reality is, you know, everyone needs to have this approach in some ways to their birth. It doesn't mean you have to take a birthing from within class or be trained as a birthing from within professional. But if, like I said, if we go in feeling like this, all this information is going to serve me and it's all I need to know. Then it's likely that we will be disappointed. And perhaps even traumatized by the reality of what we asked you to do, which is peel back layers, be exposed, be vulnerable, be raw, maybe cry, maybe ask for help all these things that, you know, if we think we're just going to pet bandage this up with information, it's like the reality is pretty clear that it's actually a deeper experience for most people. Wow.

Sarah (15:46):

Wow. I'm feeling like, uh, I should have taken your classes before I became an adult like this, that what you're teaching would just even help in every way, shape and form, because there's, we do have this like brushing under the rug type of culture. Like, Oh, if it's painful or you hear it, maybe it's the poison coming from the manifest culture, like, Oh, only think about what you want and don't think about what you don't want, because then your brain will make it happen for you. But you're saying that's not even, that's not even true.

Erica (16:19):

Right. I mean, it's not true. And, and I run into this with parents all the time who, you know, might say like, um, Oh, I'm just not going to read the chapter on Safari and birth because I don't want to have a Sicilian birth. And I don't want to think about it, you know, go down that road. And I totally appreciate that intention to protect ourselves and to, um, you know, to guide ourselves theoretically down a path towards what we want. But we also know that just not thinking about something or hoping to avoid it does not make it not happen. Right. Totally. And so if we've never looked at a scenario in birth, for example, in the book or talked about it and not only just talked about it or looked at it, but thought about like, well, how would I navigate that? How would I stay present to that experience?

Erica (17:07):

What would I tap into within myself in that really hard moment to get me through it so that I can still feel compassion and love for myself in that moment, not just disappointment or regret, right. If we look at it that way, then if it that's how this baby needs to be born, it's not like the rug just got pulled out from under us and that we are now like having no resources to handle it. So it's not like we don't believe that thinking about it, it's going to make it happen. But we also don't believe that not thinking about it is going to have it not happen, killer statement, but it's like, both are the same. It's like we don't have that much power would be amazing if we had that much power. But what we do have power is like, how do we, how do we handle these hard moments? You know, what do we do?

Sarah (18:01):

Yeah, yeah. And, and again, this is, this is a life altering change. This is a life altering experience. The things, the tools that you use to get you through this and to thrive through this will actually apply to the rest of your life too. I mean, parenting is you think the birth is interesting. Try potty training four times. So you, you mentioned that, um, that, well, well birth is a right, a right of passage, a hero journey. How does birthing within, so I want to hear it from you. Yeah,

Erica (18:36):

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's kind of where I was gonna head in as far as like, what makes this different is that, um, besides like the sort of shift from information based, only information based. So the other thing I want to just loop back to around the artsy piece is that yes, we do some art. Yes. We do some right brain activities. And also, yes, it's very intellectual. It's very, evidence-based, it's very information also. It's not like we want people to not, you know, to think that that's not important, it's holistic in that way. But yeah, I think one of the core things about birthing from within classes for parents and also for professionals is that we see birth as a Rite of passage. And we treat it as such, which means we know that individuals get transformed in birth, even if they weren't planning to, or even if that wasn't even on their radar.

Erica (19:29):

There is a shift that happens for people who they were before this birth, that person doesn't exist anymore. Right. I mean, they are changed one way or the other. It's not, some people might not recognize it as strongly as others. You know, that's obviously there's a spectrum, but there is a shift that happened and it's actually a cellular change. Like there's actually, like, we actually change on a cellular level, the hormones and all the things that are happening and the experience of like going to that threshold of, um, what, you know, intensity, the intensity, the, um, just the cracking open that happens for people. And so in preparing people for a Rite of passage, we kind of think about, you know, what happens when you get to that threshold? Um, how do you step over it and, and stay true to yourself and stay connected with yourself. Um, and I think a huge piece of it is for people to even know that this is true. You know, again, if we only send people with information, then they're kind of shocked by the cracking open. It's really painful. It hurts in a way, like it hurts on a different level than contraction pain, but it's like, there's a, a real, uh, a real shift that's happening. And if we're in resistance to that shifting or scared of it or unsure of even what's going on, then, um, it's painful.

Sarah (21:01):

I had one client when mama at transition, right. You know, you're talking about stress, stepping over the threshold. She goes, she screamed, she goes, this is transition. And I don't want to do this and it's awful, but it means I get you to be my baby.

Erica (21:19):

Okay.

Sarah (21:19):

That's what she's talking about. She met that threshold and she's like, Oh, well this, but she knew what it meant. And so it kind of took the fear away and it was still intense, but she was so excited at recognizing what that meant.

Erica (21:33):

Right. And in our culture actually, doesn't do a great job of recognizing rites of passage. We just kind of whisk over all these monumental experiences in our lives

Sarah (21:44):

Except weddings. I mean, we do kind of go with

Erica (21:47):

Yes. Weddings. We do honor for sure. I mean, I feel like for people in your life becoming a parent is probably the most transformational in most ways like the, who you were before shifts the most, when you become a parent. And when we're in a Rite of passage, we don't know what the future holds. That's kind of, one of the definitions of it is like you're standing on this threshold of like truly an unknown, you know? And so stepping into parenting is just like, I don't know what this is going to be. Like, I don't know what this birth experience is going to be. Like, I don't know what raising a child is going to be like. And so being in a place of the unknown and being, allowing ourselves to be slightly comfortable with the unknown, it doesn't mean we have to be in full acceptance of like, you know, cause that's really hard, but at least allowing ourselves like a step towards that is huge.

Erica (22:41):

We get into the birth experience or parenting and we're dealing with like, I don't know how to do this. I've never done this before. Um, we want to be able to sort of tap into that inner, inner resilience and inner resourcefulness and know that we are changing. You know, I mean, I often talk to parents about it's, it's similar to, uh, uh, Caterpillar, you know, who does all the eating, that's like the information gathering and all the preparation and then spinning the Chrysalis and then hanging there for a little while, literally turning to go. Yeah. Right. Like cellularly changing and then emerging a new, and also recognizing with that emergence is like a wet, you know, butterflies have like wet wings. They aren't just ready to like fly. They have to feel into the newness. Yeah. So even just kind of speaking to that is, is really useful for parents for when they find themselves in that moment where they could almost identify that they're in the place of goo. Yeah. Right. It's like, they're going to be really in between who they were and who they're becoming.

Sarah (23:49):

So is that the title of this episode is embrace the group.

Erica (23:54):

People might think we're talking about the mucus plug or something to stay away from there.

Sarah (24:01):

You have, the curriculum is, um, taught by instructors that have been taught by the, the modality. Right. Pam, Pam, England, the founder taught instructors and you still continued to teach structure.

Erica (24:16):

Right. Right. Exactly.

Sarah (24:18):

How does, um, so you teach the instructions, but do you also teach doulas and midwives? Do you also have courses for them to kind of embrace this modality?

Erica (24:26):

Right. Um, definitely. Definitely. We, um, we love having, Oh, the range of birth professionals join our programs because we feel like, um, it's not just for childbirth educators, um, this, this philosophy and helping people to kind of recognize all that is involved in the depth of it. And, um, is, you know, useful for massage therapists and yoga teachers and midwives. And so we have, um, a workshop that's typically live obviously in the past, but now we're moving into virtual and it's going to be virtually. It will be amazing because, um, it's not going to be a webinar. It's like a really embodied workshop. But our workshop is really designed to give the birth professionals an opportunity to dive in and do all this work for themselves. Because what we find for birth professionals is either they're burnt out because they've been banging their head up against the wall by teaching people to do X.

Erica (25:28):

And then the people do Y and there for whatever, where they just keep feeling like, why isn't this working out? I can't, I'm teaching them everything. And then this keeps happening. They keep feeling disappointed or traumatized or, you know, whatever. And so there's burnout, you know, it's a phenomenon in birth professionals for sure. And or we want to give people the opportunity to look at their own conditioning, really? Like, what do I believe about birth? Why do I believe that's true? Why is that? Is it potentially influencing how I work with parents, with parents, um, and be able to kind of peel back again, peel back some layers and what else is true here? What else is possible?

Sarah (26:09):

So a lot of birth workers, I see they, they enter the field because they're so passionate. They see there's a wrong and they, a lot of times have experienced birth trauma themselves. And they want to prevent that from ever happening to anyone else. So they come in with this core wound that, and I don't want to sound terrible, but if you don't have your own stuff under control, you bring that oozy wound into the space of your clients. And so what you're saying is that like your birth birthing from within can help a professional release that stuff and

Erica (26:46):

Yeah. Do their work because you're so right. If, if we enter in which most people do, like I said, that's sort of how it happened for me. Like I got it wasn't necessarily because of wounding, but I got like very like attached. Like this is how everyone should do it. And that's actually kind of dangerous in a way as a birth professional, because then I'm like saying, this is how you need to do it. So then my clients are either trying for that. And then if they don't do it, they, they feel like they let me down. They feel like they let themselves down. Um, or they, you know, might do it my way. And then they feel like, yay, we're aligned. And then they might go out and tell other people, that's how you should do it. And then anyways, it sort of exacerbates this problem of like all of us thinking that there's a way that we should and getting attached and then disappointed or attached and traumatized.

Erica (27:31):

And so, um, yeah, are crossing the threshold workshop is really about that. It's like, let's look at what's up for you around birth and what are you carrying with you, what's getting in your way. Um, what's burning you out. What's inspiring you. And just like really kind of take some deep looks at that so that when you move forward with your clients or your parents, you're working with, you're not looking through the lens of only what you've always known to be true. Definitely a huge piece of our training. And, um, and then we have online, um, like a online certification program. That's a nine month program for childbirth educators and doulas specifically, but we do have a lot of people from different modalities who, um, do it just so that they gain some new tools to work with their parents. And

Sarah (28:18):

Because this is just a tool, this is just one of the things that you just for the education,

Erica (28:24):

Right? Well, it's a philosophy change and actually oftentimes a paradigm shift for people which can feel very rejuvenating and like kind of nourishing as a birth professional when you're like, I just like, I have a new way of seeing things and it's like very uplifting and very exciting. And so for a lot of birth professionals, it gives them some, um, just sort of a freshness to what they're doing, but also many, many tools in which to bring to their, the parents that they're working with.

Sarah (28:52):

So you can't completely shun the idea of an attachment because you still, you still kind of have an idea of what an ideal birth would look like. I mean, through the program, an ideal birth would look like the mom and the, the partner reach every milestone and the birth and a certain openness or, I mean, what, so, so you had the attachment, Oh, the this should happen this way. And then this should happen that way. And then this, and then there shouldn't be, you had that kind of attachment, but now that's been washed away. You're no longer hung up on and okay. So I won't be specific like people saying, well, I'm going to have an epidural and then they have a home birth and it's traumatizing because they had this attachment to not feeling any pain or the other way I wanted a home. Now I got a transfer and now they're upset because they had an attachment. So those attachments you're getting rid of, but you are still replacing them with the philosophy of an attachment. So is the new attachment. Now I want to accept whatever

Erica (29:55):

A catchment to unattachment, I'm trying to poke at you. I'm like, no, no, no,

Sarah (30:00):

Because you ha you are replacing something

Erica (30:02):

Totally. Well, we like to kind of think about it on a, on a fulcrum almost where you've got like avoidance and attachment and it's kind of like, it's like a Teeter totter, you know, you're kind of going up or down and, and in the middle is acceptance.

Sarah (30:16):

Oh, say it again. Avoidance is one, one side and attachment is on another. Oh, wow. Okay.

Erica (30:22):

And so in the SA, in the middle is acceptance. Now it doesn't mean that there, isn't going to be a moment where we feel really disappointed. I'm not suggesting that people are like, I don't care or whatever. I don't care. Of course we care. Of course we, you know, we have things that we want to have happen or things that we want to avoid. That's like a hundred percent human and natural. So I'm not suggesting that we just like, absolutely let go. And just like, whatever happens happens, I don't care that's that would be unrealistic. But if we can get to a place where we can say, Oh, this is happening, right. This, whatever it is, this is happening. So I kind of have the option of being like, you know, wishing it wasn't or getting attached to that. It is, or I have the opportunity to say like, and what's the next little step I need to do to, in order to handle it.

Erica (31:13):

What's the little thing I need to do in order to stay present right now in the midst of whatever it is that's happening. So yes, it's still, there is, you know, of course ultimately like some type of attachment and I'm sort of joking when I say attachment to unattachment, but yeah, we want to have people feel fluid and feel flexible and feel self compassion for whatever it is that they have to do, because this is another piece we, sometimes we talk about the heroic journey. And if you think about the hero journey, the hero is stepping into this ordeal, right? Like if you think about, for example, Molana, she's a great example of the heroic journey. She's been conditioned by her people, her family, to believe in, understand what gains you love and acceptance. That's what all humans are looking for. And that's how she's been conditioned.

Erica (32:08):

We all are conditioned in our families and our culture by if I do this, if I feel accepted, if I do that, I feel ostracized or whatever. So we're always as children, especially looking for what's the path that leads me to love and acceptance, right? So we've put those in our backpack, all those like ideas, like here's how I am loving and accepted. And then we get ready for our journey. And then we are tossed and turned on the ordeal because it's really hard. So you think about marijuana, she's like, you know, fighting with all the things in the ocean, right. And she has to keep stripping away the things that she believed in all of a sudden, like it's not really serving her anymore to hold that belief. Or maybe she has to do something that she always said she would never do. Like, this is what happens in Burr and in a heroic journey and in like what we would call the ordeal.

Erica (33:05):

So if parents are kind of prepared for the fact that they might have to do something that they, they were really hoping, they wouldn't like, you know, sometimes people have a thing of like, I don't want to make a lot of noise. I don't want to get a lot B you know, drawing a lot of attention to myself. And probably because their old story line was like, I do better when I go under the radar, like that's in my conditioning, like what I've learned, right? But maybe in their birth, they have to scream and they have to moan and they have to howl. They have to, you know, plead for support and help. And that's really contrasting to everything they've ever had to do in their life. And so what we want them to know is like, they are still worthy. They are still lovable. They are still accepted. Even if they have to peel back those layers and be super raw and exposed and maybe do the thing they hope they'd never have to do, maybe do the thing like poop on the bed or something.

Sarah (34:06):

So, so this is pretty incredible for partners then to, to be there with, with their partner and go through this so that if she's been conditioned that she must be quiet and dainty while she gives birth. But then she ends up screaming and howling, that partner is right there with hers, with her, and they're accepting her and loving her. And she knows that that she's being loved and accepted, even though she can expect

Erica (34:30):

It's screened. Exactly. Wow. Bakley. So it's super important for the partners to have these conversations as well, so that they also aren't shocked when they're the birthing parent is, you know, doing like something they've never seen them do, or they kind of knew was something that they hope to avoid and then they can stay present, um, and stay connected in that time of, of such exposure and vulnerability.

Sarah (35:01):

And then they don't feel fear too, because one of the things I notice, again, as a fly on the wall as a birth filmmaker, I see so many partners just standing wide-eyed in the corner, just not knowing how to even broach this. They went to the birth classes, they went to the prenatal appointments, everything, but then when it, when it comes to that threshold, I love that you call it that they feel ill prepared as well. And they don't even know how and, and their feelings almost take us. Their feelings do take a back seat to the birthing person because they, the breathing person needs all the attention. And here's the partner back here going, what do I do? How do I feel about watching my love, go through this? And how do I,

Erica (35:46):

Yeah, exactly. I often use a metaphor for partners of, of being the banks of the river. Um, they, they are the banks and that the one who's giving birth, it gets to be the river. And there might be moments where they are just like in the Royals, you know, like where it's like Rocky and tumbling and whitewater and you know, all that. And the bank of the river is still there, which allows the birthing person to kind of bump up against them and be like, Oh, that's my favorite thing ever.

Sarah (36:17):

But if the person doesn't know how to be a bank, if they don't have the tools to be a bank, then the river ends up just,

Erica (36:22):

And it's right. And it's really hard to do the hard things if you don't feel the, the kind of container for which, in which to do it, you know? So for the one who is giving birth to feel like I can be as wild as I need to be. And there also might be moments where I'm super Placid and I'm just finding my way. And there's not a lot of confusion, but there might be times where it's like the full on waterfall. And yet if I can lean up or bump up against that bank and recognize like, okay, I'm not alone. And I'm being held. And I, and I am being seen and I'm allowed to do what I need to do, even if it's, even if it's, you know, outside my comfort zone or outside the parameters of what I ever hoped I would have to do, I have this sort of, um, container for it.

Erica (37:10):

And I think birth professionals can offer that as well. And so we're all sort of holding this vision of like, it's likely that the person who's giving birth is going to have to, um, you know, do some stuff that's hard and scary for them and or vulnerable for them. And if, if we are holding that as like, yep, yep. That's all part of it. And you are becoming new. Wow. As you're becoming new, there's some transitions you're going to have to do. And there's some things you're going to have to step over and you're, and, and we are here and we love you. And we, you are so worthy right. Then the person can feel safe doing those really hard things.

Sarah (37:48):

And so what does that do then to the relationship, both during the birth, and then as they start their journey of Parenthood,

Erica (37:54):

You mean with parents?

Sarah (37:56):

Yeah. Yeah. When they, when they get to do this, so you're saying don't get attached, but now I'm getting attached to the idea of this riverbank thing where this couple can be so connected and push off each other because that's, that's actually gotta be really awesome for the partner to feel the bit, to be a bank and to push back on the force of that, not in a controlling way, but in a state

Erica (38:17):

Safety way. Right. And it allows them to really show up, you know, I had a lot of parents, or a lot of partners have the question for themselves of like, will I be able to stay present? Will I know what to do? You know, and I think it can be they're going through their own Rite of passage. And a lot of times for what it is for them is like, keep showing up, keep being here in this really intense moment, keep bringing your love to this moment and over and over and over again. And so if they're kind of ready for that too, I think it, it does bring a connection to, to a couple or to a family where they feel like, Whoa, look what we just did together. You know, not only are they individually transforming their, their relationship is transforming, especially this, the first baby. Right. And so they are, um, connecting and discovering all this like resilience and this, like, you know, these capabilities that they have together. So,

Sarah (39:19):

And then starting out those sleepless nights.

Erica (39:23):

Yeah. Well, isn't parenting just such an experience of constantly having to let go in some ways. I mean, yes, we still have, we have foundations, we get information, we make really good decisions. And then also our child starts becoming who they are. They bump up against our, you know, our things where we're saying, this is how it's going to go. And then we're like, well actually, maybe not, maybe, you know, I think a lot of times with parents parenting, we have that, you know, I'm gonna raise my kid this way, or I'm gonna have this sleep pattern or I'm going to feed my,

Sarah (39:56):

Well, I was a perfect parent until I had children. Right.

Erica (39:59):

Exactly.

Sarah (40:02):

All about teenagers until you have one. Right?

Erica (40:05):

Exactly. And then if you have multiple children, then you really get twisted because you, you think you kind of got it with that first one or whatever, and then it's completely different. So I think it's wonderful preparation for life and parenting to be looking at all of these, um, truths around, around, um, moving through these rites of passage and these ordeals,

Sarah (40:31):

It's almost like Parenthood. Then we get to be the, um, the bank, the riverbank for our children.

Erica (40:37):

Exactly. That's walkway. And then that's our turn. Wow. So cool. Yeah.

Sarah (40:45):

So how do people find out more about you? How do they be part of the movement that you're

Erica (40:52):

Creating? Thanks for asking. I were, um, we are always so excited to, to have people discover birthing from within either for the first time or a lot of times, because it's been around for a long time. People might've had a thing of like, I've always wanted to check that out or, um, it's been on their radar. So we definitely invite both new and seasoned birth professionals to our trainings. Um, but our website is www.birthingfromwithin.com and we have all kinds of options. We have some continuing ed courses, which are really rich, um, as well as like I mentioned, the crossing, the threshold retreat, which is virtual for the rest of 2020, and, um, is the opportunity to do a lot of introspection and personal work. So that birth professionals are really stepping into their work with parents, um, from an openhearted place that isn't clouded by burnout and their own traumas and their own conditioning.

Erica (41:50):

And we have the, um, online, the certification course is called birth as a heroic journey. And it's a nine month course for childbirth educators and doulas. And, um, it goes super deep with, um, pain coping, um, heart opening processes and, um, birth art. And we have a, a big component around birth justice and, um, personal work through. And so anyways, it's very rich and deep and we're really proud of it. It's an incredible program. And, and I, um, yeah, I just invite anyone who is in inspired or interested to check it out and see if, um, we might be a good, a good fit or a good next step for you in your growth and expansion as both a human and as a birth professional. Um, there's always room for there. That's sort of, part of our belief system is like there's always room for more growth and more perspective changing. We like to kind of think about it like the kaleidoscope, you know, like if you look through a kaleidoscope long enough without shifting it, we get very like accustomed to what it looks like. But if you just make one little notch with that collateral, it's all new and different and it's an end, you have a new way of seeing things. So that's, that's sort of, our invitation is like maybe just shift your kaleidoscope one notch and see what else is possible.

Sarah (43:11):

Oh my goodness. So yummy. I could talk to you literally all day.

Erica (43:16):

Okay.

Sarah (43:16):

Wow. Thank you so

Erica (43:18):

So much.

Sarah (43:21):

And this has been fascinating. So I would love listeners. I would love to hear what you thought about this episode. Email me@mediaatbirthcircle.com. Um, please do reach out to birthing from within if you feel that this is again part of your journey. Thank you. Thank you again, Erica.

Erica (43:36):

Oh, thanks for having me. That was really fun. It was a great conversation. Thanks Sarah.

Sarah (43:45):

Please visit us@birthcircle.com. Join our Facebook groups or find us on Instagram and Pinterest. We hope you'll use our resources to support your birthing experience And thank you to launch pod media who produces these podcasts.